Rebecca (00:00.892)
Hello and welcome to the Champagne Lounge podcast. If you're just tuning in for the first time, this podcast is where we deep dive into the who, the what, and the why of our members inside the wonderful regional business women's community that we have online. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Hayley Quinn. Welcome to the show, Hayley.
Hayley (00:21.002)
Hey, thanks Rebecca for having me on, this is lovely.
Rebecca (00:23.952)
This is super exciting to have you on the show today. You currently split your time between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast. Now, if I've got this correct, because we've been talking about it in our virtual meetups, moving into helping business owners tackle burnout. Now, before I want to dive into the burnout side of things and actually self-care, what has led you to this journey? Because you haven't always been focused on the burnout space.
Hayley (00:53.642)
No, I was very not focused on the burnout space and ended up in my own burnout, which I think many of us that end up working in this space have got a story of some similarity. So I was originally born in the UK and came to Australia in my mid-twenties. And I had a... Yeah, very similar, quite a spontaneous, like I think I'll move overseas and try and figure out who I am kind of story.
Rebecca (00:55.866)
Hehehehe
Rebecca (01:11.736)
Sounds very similar to me. Yeah.
Hayley (01:21.078)
And I had a background working in admin bookkeeping. I was a PA for CEOs of companies, worked in accounting departments and different things and decided that I wanted something different. I knew I always wanted a job where I was helping people. So cut a long story short, I had started a degree, had some health issues, ended up finishing that, became a mum, became a single parent.
and decided, look, it's either going to work that I don't really want to be doing or completely change what I do. So whilst I was a single mum, I went and did a Bachelor of Psychology. I went on to do my honours and then went ahead and did a PhD in clinical psychology. And during that time, I was at times working up to three jobs to try and earn enough money to, you know, support myself and my son.
And I thought I was doing a pretty good job of taking care of myself. And I think on some level I was, I was making sure I was eating pretty well. I was sleeping when I could, but I was really quite disconnected from myself. And I was just really, really busy. And when I look back, it's a no brainer that I was going to end up really ill. Like you just can't work like that. I think you can do that.
Rebecca (02:34.092)
Yeah, but when you're in the thick of it, when you're in the thick of it, you don't see it, do you? You just sort of keep going.
Hayley (02:39.21)
No, absolutely. And I was, I was a single mom in survival mode. I had to, I had to keep going. It was like, you know, I've got to create a life for me and my son. So I did end up with chronic illness and a significant burnout. And I was working as a psychologist in a group practice, but worked for myself, like we all rented rooms in the same space. And I had to make a really difficult decision about leaving there and starting something for myself.
So I started a home-based business, not even knowing actually if I was going to continue to be a psychologist or how much work I would be able to do. I'd remarried at the time and my husband was really doing almost everything at home. And as somebody who had been a high achieving person, and when I say that, I actually dropped out of school early and I did abysmally at school, but I'd always strived to kind of do well in things.
Hayley (03:40.146)
So getting really unwell and being quite dependent on somebody else was a really, really hard time for me. So it became really.
Rebecca (03:46.42)
It's a very big culture shock, I think. I broke my leg a few years ago and that was enough for me to go, oh, this isn't fun. Like I really do need to pay attention to myself. And then a few years later, burnout. Oh, yeah, this isn't fun depending on other people at all. And until you actually get into that situation, you don't realize how frustrating it is as a high achieving person to be dependent.
Hayley (03:49.651)
Absolutely.
Hayley (04:10.162)
Yeah. And how much we take our abilities for granted. So that for me was a real shock. It was, it was, there was a lot of grief. There was a lot of stuff around my own identity. And I was really fortunate that in some of my training as a psychologist, I'd come across a framework called compassion-focused therapy, which I felt was a really beautiful fit for my clients. But what ended up happening was it's very much a framework that you embody as a therapist.
Rebecca (04:16.348)
Yeah.
Hayley (04:40.222)
And it was life-changing for me. So that kind of started this process of, okay, I really need to do things differently. And I just started creating my business in a way that worked differently for me, focused on different things, held in mind my wellbeing.
And then I had lots of people who would approach me and sort of say, um, Oh, can I have some sessions with you around that sort of stuff? Like I want to work differently in my business or I want to become more self compassionate. So that's kind of how it came about. And now I just feel so passionate about it because particularly over COVID. And as we came out of that, you can just see that people have been just working in ways that are just not helpful.
Rebecca (05:25.976)
Mm-hmm.
Hayley (05:26.078)
and the risk of burnout for so many people and the levels of burnout for so many people are just way too high, yeah.
Rebecca (05:34.468)
They're huge. So before I dive into the conversation of burnout, because you and I have talked about this at length, it's currently, in my opinion, a bit of a buzzword that gets thrown around without people really realizing what the implications of burnout are. Before we go into that, because I think that's really important to cover, you mentioned that you wanted to do your business differently. Um, when people say that, I know a lot of listeners will go, well, what does that mean? Like it's all very well me saying, like I want to change my life and I want to make it amazing. And I want to look on my health.
Doing your business differently, what did that look like to you and what did you actually do to do it differently?
Hayley (06:12.502)
So lots of things. And what I would say to that is it's also an ongoing process. For me, it is understanding that as I grow and change and evolve in my life and as my seasons of life change, my business can change with it. And that's been really important for me. It's like my business does not have to look the same in a year as it does now.
doesn't have to look the same as six months as it does now. So the sort of things I started doing. Well, prime example, we've just sold our house. I don't know when this is going to be aired. Hopefully I'll be finished packing and moved. Um, but my business at the moment for the next few weeks, absolutely has to look different because I've got to pack up a house and move, find somewhere else, all those things. So I guess what I started to do was.
Rebecca (06:44.048)
Sometimes even next week if a system's not working. Ha ha ha.
Rebecca (06:53.571)
Hehehehe
Hayley (07:09.546)
really, really get to know myself. I started to tune into myself in a way that I hadn't done previously in my life and ask myself questions around, does this work for me? Is this helpful or harmful for me? Is this work I enjoy or is it not? And I really sort of took all aspects of my business and also into my life and did like an audit.
of what does this look like? Does it work? Do I like it? I started with kind of changing the days I worked. I played around with the number of clients that I was seeing in a day. More recently, I changed, so I started later in the morning. So I'll still do some work, but it's just the work I need to do on my own agenda. I don't see one-on-one clients till later in the day.
Rebecca (08:03.972)
You know, I have a similar thing. If I take on anything before 10 a.m., even knowing I've done it, I'm all flustered. Like I feel so out of whack because I've taken something on before my usual, all right, 10 a.m., I've had time to walk the dogs and enjoy coffee and just get up and tinker and do the things that I'm enjoying doing. And whether that's jumping into work or not, if I've got to be somewhere for someone else, it throws me completely before 10 a.m., yeah.
Hayley (08:09.163)
Yeah.
Hayley (08:31.486)
Yeah. Well, what I had noticed, and I remember speaking to a friend about it. I was starting appointments, I think at nine or nine 30 in the morning. And I started noticing my nervous system was just elevating a lot in the morning. And I was like, ah, this just doesn't feel good. I feel like I'm rushing, even though I actually wasn't. I would wake up relatively early. So I wasn't actually rushing, but my nervous system was telling me, this is not, this is not right for you.
So I changed it and I start my one-on-ones at 10.30 and I just don't have that feeling in the morning and it's lovely. Yeah. So I think it was that kind of, you know, really getting to know myself, really looking at my business, what I wanted it to be, what I wanted to be doing. It's changed quite a lot. Cause I used to just do one-on-one psychology clients. I now have two separate businesses. One where I.
Rebecca (09:03.724)
It's brilliant, isn't it? Yeah, it's fascinating.
Hayley (09:25.15)
see a very small caseload of clinical clients. And I also supervise other psychologists and allied health professionals. And then I have my welcome to self business where I do one-on-one business coaching. I've got a group program. I have my podcast. So they're kind of different areas and I kind of titrate the way they are to suit where I'm at and what I want that to look like. So it's changed quite a lot over the last few years.
Rebecca (09:53.152)
I think that's awesome. And I think the beauty of being able to run our own show and do it in our own way means we have that flexibility and we have the ability to try new things and test things out. I do wanna come back to the conversation of burnout because I know there's a lot of people who are working solo, who are doing all of the things, Haley, like all of them, running households, chasing around a child to children, doing business, doing multiple businesses really, because we do wear all the hats.
When we're talking about that and conversations around looking after ourselves, what are the red flags that people should be looking for when it comes to burnout? Because burnout when we get to a clinical level is really quite serious and we don't want to get there.
Hayley (10:40.514)
Absolutely. And it can take a long time to come back from that. I think, you know, you and I were talking the other day, people talk about, Oh, I'm really tired and burnt out. We can minimize what burnout really means. This can be a very serious problem and cause some very serious health concerns and can take people months and years to actually get back to fully functioning as well. So I think, and again, the red flags,
There's things like, you know, feeling very fatigued and not feeling rested, like you might get a lot of rest and you're just not feeling energized again. Things like headaches, stomach complaints, some of those physical things that we can call, maybe I've just picked up a bug, but if you keep getting sick, it can mean your immune system's depleted. Feeling like you don't want to go to work, that sort of thing of like, ugh, you know, it's Sunday night, ugh, dreading Monday.
isolating yourself from people. But some of the other things that I think we miss and, and I had a guest on my podcast, um, my old roommate from uni, he was my first guest on my podcast. And he talked about, he's a really, really funny guy, but he talks about, he would just make jokes of everything. And he started to realize that was a red flag for him.
Rebecca (11:49.55)
Love that.
Hayley (12:03.998)
He couldn't take anything seriously because he didn't want to see what was happening. So you wouldn't think like being funny all the time is a sign for burnout, but it's that stuff of like, if your behavior changes or things become the only way you're coping with things, you need to look at that and think, well, hang on, what's going on. And the other thing I think can happen is people will look and go, but my business is really successful.
Everything's going really well in my business. I'm enjoying seeing my clients or dealing with my customers or creating the content or whatever it might be. But then they've got nothing left. They're not as engaged with their partners or their children, or maybe there's more conflict in the household. They're not seeing friends because when somebody says, Hey, do you want to go to this concert or do you want to come and see a movie? Or do you want to go out for a drink? It's like.
Rebecca (12:32.358)
Yeah.
Hayley (12:59.722)
Oh, I'd love to, but you know what? I've got nothing, nothing in the tank. And that's not living a life, is it? We don't want to be only working. So if you're kind of looking and thinking, but my business is going really well, everything's going really well. Look outside your business. You know, what else in your life was that looking like?
Rebecca (12:59.984)
Do I have to? Yeah.
Rebecca (13:19.232)
Yeah. And if you, I know for me doing exercises, like looking around going, what, what have I said yes to looking at my calendar? Like even now I'll look at my calendar and go, oh, why did I pack so much in? Like I'm trying really hard to give myself the freedom and the flexibility so I don't feel rushed. So even with the processes in mind and someone that for myself who's practiced in watching for this stuff, I still let things slip past and go.
down it, like I tried to really pack too much into that day or too much into that trip. If someone's just feeling that right now, Haley, in terms of working too hard in their business and not doing enough, like personally speaking, where would you say that they should start? Like what is a starting point for someone to start looking outside? What are they looking for? Is there like a blanket idea that they can go follow? Or is it a case of...
It's not a one size fits all scenario, but where can people start to sort of uncover what's working for them and what's not?
Hayley (14:25.61)
So for me, the very first thing, and this can be challenging for people, but is just take a moment to slow down, even just a minute. Like literally just pause. If you are continually saying to yourself, this is so hard, this is too hard, I'm so tired, just take a minute, and then ask yourself the question, if I keep going the way I'm going,
what is this going to cost me? And see if you can tune into what that is. Now it might be that you need to go and seek some professional help. Yeah. People can end up feeling quite depressed, quite anxious. And if that's the case, go and find somebody that you can work with, whether that go see your GP, go find a psychologist, um, or start, start with talking to a trusted friend, but don't try and navigate all this on your own.
I mean, you know, groups like your own or supportive spaces where people can kind of just say, you know what, I feel like I'm getting overwhelmed. It's all too much. Even if you're just reaching out to somebody in a local network, but just know that you don't need to do this on your own. And then depending on the level of this, for some people, it might be at the point where you actually have to stop.
Rebecca (15:42.848)
Yeah, I'm glad you said that.
Hayley (15:54.506)
You need to look at ways of how you're going to manage this if you need to stop. And I know that can be difficult for people. People are at different levels of privilege. Um, but with some of it, it might be, how can I actually, if I don't have capacity to stop right now, I can't immediately change my business. Cause maybe you've got clients or customers that are booked in and you can't just move them. Think about.
Could I during the day take two minutes between each appointment, even if it's just two minutes, I mean ideally longer, but even if it was just two minutes, to sit and close your eyes and just slow down your breath. Make sure you've got a drink of water or a cup of tea or something. And actually take care of you in some micro moments. Because if that's all you've got, give that to yourself.
But I think it's really important we ask ourselves, if we keep going like this, what is it gonna cost? Because in my experience, it cost me my income, it cost me my health, which then cost me money to go and see numerous specialists. Yeah, this was an expensive time of my life.
Rebecca (16:53.788)
There's power in that.
Rebecca (17:09.516)
Yeah, it compounds. Yeah.
Rebecca (17:15.04)
Yeah, particularly when you're losing your income and you've got to keep sporking out for more and more and more to fix the problem. That shouldn't have been a problem in the first place because, you know, it's the learning and the being around people that can watch for the red flags, help you through different situations and having those conversations. And I'm glad you said that within the Champagne Lounge, that is something that we do and do well, because I believe conversation is something that is...
Hayley (17:21.375)
Absolutely.
Hayley (17:30.37)
Yeah.
Rebecca (17:43.22)
so underrated with so many people that actually you don't need another to-do list, you don't need more things that you must do or show up for or you know having the calendar there's enough of that already with everything we've got going on but a conversation can change everything. So trusted friends, networks, like-minded business people if it's in a business conversation area, I think that's really important so thank you thank you for bringing that up. Now
Hayley (17:57.634)
Yeah.
Hayley (18:06.081)
Yeah.
Rebecca (18:12.092)
On that topic, you know, meeting different people and having conversations, you and I connected when you joined the Champagne Lounge through following us on online. What was it about the vibe that we were giving out that inspired you to go, I want to learn more. But then also now you're inside it. How does the magic feel for you?
Hayley (18:32.362)
So somebody had told me about you, which is always a good thing, right? Words never. Well, somebody I trusted said you were good people. So it's like, okay, well, that's a good first step. And then of course I did what people do and I did some internet stalking of you and certainly not in a creepy way, just in a like, who is this woman? And you, your vibe, your story.
Rebecca (18:37.496)
Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.
Hayley (19:00.014)
Obviously there was this connection, you at a similar age got on a plane, came to Australia as an English woman and built a life for yourself. So there was obviously something there for me that resonated. And your, the way that you have embraced yourself, the way you put yourself out in the world in a very real and authentic way, I really got a sense of that when I was looking at your...
Rebecca (19:06.543)
Yeah.
Hayley (19:29.906)
Instagram and your website and everything. And authenticity is one of my highest values. And I am quite attuned to picking up on when people aren't. So that felt really nice for me. And
Rebecca (19:45.412)
That's good. I always find it's so much more energy to put out trying to be different things to different people. It's just far easier just being me. Yeah.
Hayley (19:51.474)
Absolutely. I spent a lifetime being a chameleon, right? And I was just like, which probably contributed to my burnout as well. And now I'm just like, love me all that leaves me, whatever. And you know, I'm in a place now where I've completely changed the relationship with myself and I've gone from being extremely self-critical and having a
Rebecca (19:57.776)
Right?
Rebecca (20:01.612)
It's exhausting. It's exhausting.
Yeah, this is who I am. Let's go.
Hayley (20:19.938)
not a good relationship with myself to, um, I love who I am and how I am and I'm quirky and I'm different and I've got flaws and that's okay. Um, but I, but I saw that in you. I saw that in you in a big way. And I really liked that and your price point was really accessible as well. For me, it was literally like, this is a no brainer. What have I got to lose? I'm going to jump in and try. Now I'm, I'm quite introverted.
Rebecca (20:28.856)
We all do. Yeah.
Hayley (20:46.73)
which sometimes surprises people, but I'm quite introverted. And I'm not big on kind of groups of people. And so it wasn't really my thing. Let's join a networking event. And some of my early history, I've been wary of women. So I've not wanted to join women's groups, but I was like, you know what? Life's about growth. I'm gonna give this a go. And it has been, like I tend to come to the Power Up Monday.
And it has been such a beautiful, supportive, intellectually stimulating and fun group to be a part of. Sometimes there's the same women, sometimes there's different women. I think we all contribute in our own way at different times about different things. It feels like a very
judgment free zone and even though well I've probably been a member for quite a few months now time flies by right
Rebecca (21:51.989)
It does, it really does go fast.
Hayley (21:55.17)
But even early on, it felt for me like somewhere I could bring something I wanted to talk about or a question I wanted to ask and just put it out there and not feel like that was going to be weird or why don't you know that if you're in business or, and particularly for a psychologist, you should know that at all. So I found that to be a very supportive, very non-judgmental and, and fun because I don't think I've been to one yet where we haven't had a laugh about something.
Rebecca (22:23.764)
Yeah, that's because everyone's done this, either gone through a similar story or have experienced a similar thing. And big believer that a problem shared is a problem halved, if not solved by many people that have trodden the journey before you. So the ability to come in and share and have those conversations for me, listening to you share that gives me all the warm and fuzzies because I'm like, oh, yeah, that's what I wanted to create. And that's what's there because.
Hayley (22:31.329)
Yeah.
Hayley (22:38.227)
Absolutely.
Hayley (22:45.998)
Yeah. I mean... Yeah!
Rebecca (22:51.256)
You should be able to ask questions and share feelings without fear of judgment so that you can learn and grow and meet new people and progress your business and yourself and make new friends, simple as that.
Hayley (22:53.471)
What?
Hayley (22:58.335)
Yeah.
Hayley (23:04.318)
Absolutely. And I think if I can just add to that, but we're talking about burnout before, like people can feel a lot of shame when they start to struggle or they feel like they're not coping or they're experiencing burnout. And I think this piece around having a conversation with somebody is so important because
I don't know the exact statistics around the burnout rate. And I'm sure we probably don't know, because there'd be so many people are not reporting. You are not alone. If you are feeling burnt out, or if you're struggling in your business, you are not alone. I think everybody that runs a business, at some point at least, feels like they've got no idea what they're doing. Everything feels too hard.
they want to chuck it all in and go do something else. So I think having those conversations helps normalise and validate how we feel as human beings because we can be a bit have a tendency to sort of be like well I better not tell anyone what will they think of me and that sort of stuff and a lot of shame can come with that which is not helpful for your burnout process and recovery at all.
Rebecca (24:20.76)
Yeah, no, I'm glad you shared that because it's so important to have that conversation. And just to know you're not alone. You know, I'm a big believer, even through my days of building my video production company, it was a case of no question is ever too silly. Like you can ask me whatever you want to ask and we'll guide you through the process. And I think that's the same as a business owner, as a woman, as a mom, you've got to find people that you can talk to share in the conversations because...
you're not alone and people have been there around you and have done it differently. I've trod the path before and learned the lessons on your behalf so I can guide you in different ways and give you their advice, which is really invaluable, invaluable. Yeah.
Hayley (24:53.195)
Yeah
Hayley (24:59.976)
Exactly.
Hayley (25:03.934)
which can give people hope. It's like if people knew me, I don't even know how many years ago it is now. It's probably eight, maybe eight years ago. Um, I could barely get off my couch. I went from that to, you know, running two, two businesses traveling around the world doing, you know, speaking at conferences and retreats, doing all sorts of stuff, starting a podcast.
All sorts of things. So I think you can see that actually people can be where I'm at and they can get through that and life can be different. I think that gives people a lot of hope and hope is such a valuable asset.
Rebecca (25:39.236)
That's massive. And actually the hope piece comes from sharing the stories and having the conversations, you know? So Hailey, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and having a conversation with me today. It's been fantastic. I look forward to seeing you online on one of our many meetups, if not Monday mornings. I do enjoy those power up fun days every Monday morning at 10 a.m. Thank you so much for joining me on the show. It's been fantastic.
Hayley (25:43.594)
Absolutely.
Hayley (26:05.502)
Well, thanks for inviting me. It's always lovely to connect with you.
Rebecca (26:11.58)
Perfect.
