Rebecca (00:01.094)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Champagne Lounge podcast. As you'll know by now, if you're a regular listener on this podcast, I interview all our wonderful members about who they are, what they do and why they do it. Today I'm joined by the fantastic Josephine Lancumba, who is a performing arts business coach, speaker and talent manager. Welcome to the show, Josephine.
Josephine Lancuba (00:23.534)
Hello, thank you for having me.
Rebecca (00:25.814)
I am so excited to deep dive into this because from a background in video production myself, the idea of being a talent manager, for me, your job is like herding cats.
Josephine Lancuba (00:36.046)
It can be, it definitely can be, especially because I've worked with adult talent and youth talent, but I do specialise in youth talent. So if you think of it from that perspective, herding cats, like you said, with talent, imagine the parents of the talent. So there you go, another layer.
Rebecca (00:51.966)
Thank you.
Rebecca (00:57.606)
Oh, I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Now that's a big project to get into. It's a lot of people management. How did you get into the creative arts and the performance art space? And what's your, tell us a bit about your background as to why you do what you do.
Josephine Lancuba (01:12.942)
Yeah, so I've always sung. Since I was a little girl, I loved to sing. I had a great influence from my older sisters who were into music and dance and the performing arts. So I witnessed that growing up. I loved it so much that I decided at one point that it was really something I wanted to pursue as a career. I was always the kid in the musical theater show at school and the school band.
But, you know, I do come from the school of hard knocks. I've had to sort of make my own way in the world. I was, you know, out there at 14, like, you know, paying my own rent and living in the world. So that was always challenging. But the arts was something that was my safe place. It never changed. The feeling I had around it was always consistent. So, you know, I went and got some jobs doing the things you're supposed to do, you know, went and worked in an office and.
Rebecca (01:49.5)
Wow.
Josephine Lancuba (02:07.054)
did reception at 18 and all the bits. And I just was never fulfilled. I just knew I was destined to be in the performing arts. So I pursued it. I went and studied full-time in a musical theater course and then traveled interstate and did a couple of years full-time training. Came back and loved it. Became an artist myself. I got to perform on stages and on screens for
quite a while, definitely over a decade. I still dabbled in here and there now. I do the odd presenting gig and whatnot, some commercial work, but really there was a period where I just saw myself as an artist. And then I transitioned into being the artist who, you know, dabbled in business. And then the business side of me really took the forefront and I actually preferred going behind the curtain, to be honest. So it did transition over time.
But yeah, I started working for other organizations as a talent manager and for promotional companies and managing the artists. And I loved it, fell in love with it. So eventually when I had my first child, I decided it was time to hang up the microphone. I was still gigging. I was gigging. I was playing Sporty Spice in a tribute show.
Rebecca (03:32.21)
gonna have to dig up the photos of that one.
Josephine Lancuba (03:34.674)
I do actually, and you wouldn't know now looking at me, two kids later in life, but yeah, I was Sporty Spice just putting it out there. And I was like four months pregnant and I was still Sporty Spice. And there was a point where I'm like, okay, this is not gonna work. So I hung up my microphone and just deep dived into the world of business, opened up a performing arts studio, started my own talent agency in-house.
Rebecca (03:51.421)
Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (04:04.27)
and was very much into the programming side of performing arts. So developing programs and workshops and facilitating them, you know, for different councils and schools and my own studio and that sort of thing. So that's kind of a long story short, but that's where I am today. And then, yeah, and then getting into performing arts business coaching and showing others how to do what I've done over the last two decades of my life, you know.
Rebecca (04:21.807)
Yeah.
Rebecca (04:31.902)
Amazing. And so business, I'm from a creative background, but not in the performing art space. Right. And I know that there's a lot of people that are in the creative arts in whatever remit they're in that really struggle with the business side and the making money side. So what was it about business for you that was like the bright shiny thing of, oh, I really want to learn more about this and dive more into the business side of creative production? Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (04:57.206)
Yes, I love this because you're absolutely right. That is why I became a performing arts business coach nearly two years ago now to teach others in my space, performing arts studio owners and creatives, how to actually see themselves as a business. And it is difficult because the arts is not necessarily perceived that way.
But it absolutely is a business. It can be lucrative and there's money to be made and you can actually live a comfortable life from the arts. But unfortunately, we tie our passion too deeply into the business side. So, you know, it's the same old thing. I'll do this for exposure or I'll just do it because I love it and you know, and it just doesn't work. But the business side of it really came about, it was funny, I was on a walk with a friend.
And this was a decade ago now. And I still remember this walk-in conversation, but I was working for another company running workshops for them. And I was like complaining, oh, they're so disorganized. I don't know how to do this. I don't know. What if we could do it? And she's like, well, why don't you just do it yourself? And I was like, oh, what do you mean? So we'll just, why don't you run it? Why don't you become the business? Why don't you create the programs?
that sounds like a good idea. So, and you know, I grew up, my parents were entrepreneurial, they always had businesses in the hospitality space, but still always I grew up around business. So yeah, so it didn't seem that far fetched to do it. And I just started and I started really badly. And I made a lot of mistakes. And I didn't value myself and I probably
gave things away for far less than I should have, or did too many things for free, or didn't value my time. But that's the learning process, you know? And I think that's something that I definitely share with my coaching clients. Like, it's just a process and you can't, you know, you can't regret the time you spent. Sometimes I think, oh, I wasted five years in this project when I really should have moved on earlier, or, you know, but this is the process, isn't it? You know?
Rebecca (06:54.459)
I think it is.
Rebecca (07:10.878)
I think every business owner has the ups and downs and the, oh, should have finished that earlier or, oh, shouldn't have done it like that. And you learn the whole way. So on that, what have been the biggest mistakes that you made at the early stages? Give us the juicy details.
Josephine Lancuba (07:23.906)
Um, yeah, I think, um, because, you know, like I said, come from a hard knock background, didn't see myself as someone who had the confidence or even the, like, even though I was presenting myself quite confidently outwardly inside, it was quite, it was quite difficult because I was like, Oh, I can't do this by myself. I don't know how to do this. I didn't, I always felt like I didn't have enough money to get started and all that sort of stuff.
in the very beginning. So I partnered with people, I made some really poor business partner decisions and I partnered with them just because of the fear of doing things on my own or feeling like that they were above me, so not seeing myself as an equal in the partnership. So I'd step into these collaborations and partnerships.
And they'd always go really badly. And I always questioned, why are they all going so badly? But I've come to realize recently that the reason these partnerships went very badly was because I was walking into them less than. So I just wasn't backing myself. I wasn't walking in as an equal. And I was walking in, you know, thinking that they were the expert and I was going to learn everything from them. But really, truly that wasn't the case. So I had to learn the hard way.
very much so when it came to really poor business partnership decisions. That probably sent me back quite a few years, to be honest. Some other things as well, I think, you know, just knowing that you don't have to the excuses, the narrative in my head, like because if you don't come from money, you know, oh, they've made it because they come from money or that, you know, that really negative money mindset.
Rebecca (09:11.966)
Mm-hmm.
Josephine Lancuba (09:12.066)
That took me quite a long time to overcome too. So now I don't think like that at all. You know, I have an abundance mindset and I try to really, I work on that, but that in itself was debilitating when I was comparing myself to others and thinking negatively instead of going, oh, okay, well they've got that and that's okay and I'm here and they're there and that's okay too. So just comparing myself to others and thinking negatively.
about myself. It was really a confidence journey, but definitely a lot of work went into that.
Rebecca (09:42.98)
Mmm.
Rebecca (09:46.33)
Yeah, I think a lot of people will struggle, particularly coming from the creative space of trading their passion for money doesn't come naturally, particularly when you've got a society and a culture around us that doesn't necessarily value it. Right, like, you know, it's, I was having the conversation just now over coffee of someone said to me, for an upcoming event, we need to find a photography sponsor. And I was like, no, we need to find a corporate sponsor that will pay us money to pay the photographer to do their job.
Josephine Lancuba (09:52.702)
Hmm.
Rebecca (10:15.91)
And they said, but we can't, we couldn't, we just get a sponsor for that. Yeah, but that's an individual person, that's their livelihood. And I would far rather feel better in paying them to do that than asking them to do it for free. And so I think there's a huge cultural shift that's gotta happen around respecting the creative arts from an external perspective, as well as that internal perspective of, you're right, that mindset of, I am worth this, I can charge this, I can live my life this way.
Josephine Lancuba (10:27.553)
Yes.
Rebecca (10:41.694)
Um, and are you seeing those struggles now through the people that you're coaching and training, are they the same as the struggles that you went through? Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (10:41.74)
Yes.
Josephine Lancuba (10:48.763)
Yes, and it doesn't matter where they are. So they could have had their, you know, studio business for 20 years, one year. I think that's when people start coming to me is when they're like, I really want to grow. I want to thrive, but they just can't see a way forward. So that's where I help them untangle that and really, you know, come up with that strategy. But we see it so often in my industry.
especially in a community space. So if you think of a, you know, let's say a performing arts studio, you send your kid there or you go there to do some classes. You know, you get to know the teachers, you get to know the studio owner. So like, for example, one of the key lessons is just implementing a direct debit service or not allowing people into your classroom that don't pay. This is a this is almost like revolutionary concept for my industry. It's like, what do you mean?
Direct Debit, but people aren't comfortable with direct debit. I get that all the time. Aren't they? Are they paying direct debit at the gym? Are they? Yes, okay, so why not you? It's because of this community mindset. People feel like because it's a creative thing, they get to know the owner, that sort of thing. There's no detachment that they can just sort of determine how they wanna be a customer rather than the business saying, hey, this is how we operate. You know, this is...
how these are our policies, this is how we operate. Even today, I've got a client that hasn't paid and I've told my admin support person that they need to just contact them and let them know, unfortunately, they can't attend classes anymore until that bill is satisfied and resolved. People feel uncomfortable about that conversation, but I often say, would you walk into a store, pick up a T-shirt, walk out and say, oh, look, you know.
I'll pay you later. Give no bank details or anything. I'll just, I'll see you next week. Is that okay? Maybe Monday or Tuesday and I'll pay for that t-shirt. Thanks. Bye.
Rebecca (12:46.174)
You just wouldn't do it, would you? It wouldn't happen. It wouldn't happen, yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (12:49.31)
It wouldn't happen. And so, you know, even in the arts in relation to professional performing artists, you know, and being a talent agent, I advocate for the arts, you know, I'm on the standing committee of Ausdance New South Wales, which is a volunteer position. And I very much believe, you know, in the in the emotional benefits and all of these things that come with the arts, but at the same time, artists need to be paid for what they do.
So that's, I mean, that's my job as an agent as well. You know, I advocate for the artists. I ensure that they are getting what they deserve and, you know, not signing their life away for next to nothing. And we do see that even from big corporations. And sometimes someone needs to be an advocate and pull their socks up and say, hey, wait a minute. You can't ask for in perpetuity, which is forever and ever on a $200 gig. You know, that's not cool. So just,
Rebecca (13:41.905)
Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (13:45.922)
just being mindful of those sorts of things as well. And even big companies, like you said, even the sponsorship thing, expecting the photographer to come in and do it for free. But why? You know, I just, yeah, it baffles my mind.
Rebecca (13:53.254)
Yeah, it's.
Rebecca (13:58.506)
Yeah, it's a really baffling thing. And back in, I'm gonna say 2018 now, I've lost sort of all track of time as most of us have over the last few years. We produced a feature film. And one of the things we were really hot on was making sure, I was really hot on, we self-funded it, was paying everybody on set. And so the crew got paid, the talent got paid, all the like, everyone got paid, albeit the bare minimum of the award.
but there were contracts in place and everyone got paid. And it's something I'm still very much proud of because in the space, it's that case of, as you just said, not getting paid what they deserve or not getting paid at all or getting paid, yeah, we'll pay you eventually when this thing finally makes money, but we need you to invest your time and your energy now. And so one of the things that I'm really hot on is doing that. And I know you're very similar in that space, but as a corporate or a business owner, listening to this that goes, okay, well, this is all well and good, but I don't know.
what people should be being paid. You know, I don't know what that looks like or how do we even have a conversation or get a contract in place and how do talent managers even work? Does that an extra fee I've got to pay on top? Where can they go and learn and understand how to do it better? How to do better practices in this space.
Josephine Lancuba (15:11.41)
Yes, well there are actually industry standards. So like you mentioned the minimum award, there are actually awards for our industry. People just don't know about it because they haven't bothered to look. So you can start there but they're like in Australia anyway there are organizations like MEAA.org. These are places where you can find out I think it's called Media Entertainment Arts Alliance. But
Or you can even just contact, you know, whoever it is that, you know, determines minimum wage in your, in your state or territory, and just ask the question, Hey, I want to do this project. These are the type of people I need. I'm going to employ a photographer and an actor. Where do I find the minimum award, please? And they'll point you in the right direction. You know, I think it's important because, yes, even like you said, it might be a minimum, but it is an important factor.
I think too often, even as business owners, like I said, I'm working with studio owners as a coach, but even business owners, they have come from that industry. So even when they step into the business realm, it's like carrying it with them, isn't it? You know, I find even photographers and any creatives to be quite the same. I work a lot with photographers and videographers and it's a similar mindset.
Rebecca (16:20.135)
Yeah.
Rebecca (16:30.854)
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Josephine Lancuba (16:30.886)
Very, very often I've been to events where photographers are not being paid and they're working for experience or exposure, that's the word. And there is some element, you know, that like if you're, you know, a young, up and coming, emerging creative and you want to get some runs on the board, sure. But how many years does one need to do free work for exposure? You know?
Rebecca (16:38.01)
exposure is my favourite hated word. Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (16:57.334)
So that's something that I think is really important. But I see it with studio owners, the fear of asking for payment and all that jazz. So yeah, it's a recurring thing in creatives, but I think it's something we definitely can overcome. And absolutely, I think it's up to those corporate bodies and other people that are actually enjoying the art to value it. I mean, even when you go out to watch a movie, what do you think you're watching? You're watching art. People don't think about it in that context, you know?
Rebecca (16:57.66)
Yeah.
Rebecca (17:25.93)
No, they don't. And we could talk about this and go down a total tangent on, I watched through all the streaming series and I'm like, we just have all of this on such demand and going, you know, I know how much we got paid to put our movie that we spent such a long time making to be available on Stan and go, you look at it and go, wow, it's not financially worth it. You know, how do these people make money and how's the industry surviving? And it's such an interesting thing.
Josephine Lancuba (17:30.09)
100%.
Josephine Lancuba (17:51.703)
Yeah.
Rebecca (17:54.31)
to look at when you say you're watching these arts. It's skills and it's crafts that have gone into creating this stuff that we take for granted every single day. So as a creator, go on.
Josephine Lancuba (18:03.666)
My son, oh sorry, I just want to say this because this was super cute, but my son, he's only six and yesterday he asked me a really odd question. He said, now why do we have music? Like what's the point? I said, well do you enjoy music? He's like, yeah. I said, okay so that's the point. And I said, and I tried to explain it to him to a six-year-old, I said, music is life, it's enjoyment, it's laughter, it's bringing friends together, it's parties, you know, like
this is the thing. So I mean, I'm ingraining that into my children. I'm like, you better recognize kid. But yeah, I think it's really interesting. That came from a six year old. So you know, I just think it's something that we do have to educate our young ones to bring into the theater, go and you know, talk about, you know, the art and talk about going to see a film and that those people are actually actors. And that's a job.
Rebecca (18:35.602)
Yeah.
Rebecca (18:44.702)
Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (18:57.406)
You know, like I think if we start having that narrative, it will change as the years progress.
Rebecca (19:03.622)
I love that. I think that's such a tangible thing for anyone listening to take away of just having those conversations in the right way. So we've touched on how corporates can do or big organizations can do better, how we can bring the next generation into the conversation, which I think is amazing. If I'm a creative listening to this now, you obviously touched on, you know, making sure your payments are up to date and that kind of thing as a business owner. But what are the, what's a tangible thing that people can listen now and go, I can go and implement that, or at least think about.
implementing that in my creative space that will make it better.
Josephine Lancuba (19:37.298)
I think, so we talk a lot about attracting clients into our business, but I think retention is such a major part of any business, no matter what you do. And I've been really focused on actually re-enrollment and retention month in my membership at the moment. And I think if we can equally focus on how we can love up our customers, show them we care.
and give them something to look forward to and keep them for longer. It's as good as a new client. If you've got one client who's going to buy from you ongoing month after month, year after year, it's as good as attracting a new one. So it's better. A hundred percent. So, so, um, you know, I've, I've been spreading a bit of love around that this month, even just simple things like, you know, what's on a, what's on schedule.
Rebecca (20:19.706)
It's better because it's less effort once you get them in. Like it's a less effort. Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (20:35.646)
if you can just have a six to 12 month plan ahead and share that with your community so that they have something to look forward to like, oh, wow, you know, October, we've got a Halloween party this month, that's awesome. Well, I'm not gonna leave the membership. I'm not gonna leave this program, not gonna leave this universe that I'm loving because I wanna go to that party or, hey, we've got this amazing masterclass or workshop happening next year in March. Well, if I leave now, I'm gonna miss out. So I'm gonna stick around for that.
A simple what's on schedule, which is a one to two page PDF, is such an easy thing to do for customer love. But I'm big on customer love. I'm very different to most studio owners. For example, when people join us and they're kids, we have kids in our space, we courier to them a little box, a welcome pack that has their t-shirt inside, but it's wrapped in tissue paper and confetti with a note. And I just, that's just,
Rebecca (21:12.677)
Oh, so easy. Yes.
Josephine Lancuba (21:33.846)
that people will say, but that costs extra. And most studio owners will throw the t-shirt over the counter at reception. I don't do that. I want them to receive it as a parcel with their name on it written in gold pen. Like we go the extra mile. And that means we can charge a little bit extra because we're, I'm not claiming to be the cheapest, you know, I'm claiming to have quality and be the best. And so, you know, those little things that customer love element is so important for retention. So I would say if.
anything, especially coming into the new year, if we can have a retention strategy in place, not just a client attraction strategy in place. That to me is golden, you know.
Rebecca (22:13.758)
That's phenomenal. Yeah, and I think it's good to actually just keep in mind that you mentioned two things. It was one was pretty much free, right? Creating a PDF of the schedule. That's not gonna cost you anything, but a little bit of time to just put it on a piece of paper. But, and also options of spending that little bit of money as a well factor. That these things don't have to cost the earth to keep clients coming back and being customers and being part of your world year after year after year, which I think.
Josephine Lancuba (22:23.371)
I'm afraid.
Josephine Lancuba (22:37.694)
Yes, totally. And I want to say something as well. When you create something, communicate it. This is the pitfall of creatives because we want to create. So we just keep creating. And then we don't actually share the thing we've created to its like really leveraged capacity. So you know what I mean by that, right? So you might do the what's on schedule, but then you just dump it in an email and that's done.
Rebecca (22:58.527)
Oh yeah.
Rebecca (23:02.566)
That's it done.
Josephine Lancuba (23:02.77)
Instead of putting it on a poster in the studio, putting it, pinning it in the top of your, you know, WhatsApp group, whatever, like, you know, printing it out and giving it as a laminated copy to all your members. Like, whatever, making a fridge magnet. Like, you know, I'm just saying. Yeah. Like hell the people.
Rebecca (23:16.766)
All of those things, yeah, yeah. It's like, you feel like you're on repeat. You feel like you're on repeat, but you need to be, right? You need to be doing that. And I think that's something that is, you're right, so underrated that it's not just done once you've created it and put it out once. And that also, as soon as that changed in my mind, HUDIN, we all have.
Josephine Lancuba (23:23.861)
Yes.
Josephine Lancuba (23:35.734)
I've been guilty of that by the way. Yeah. I've been guilty of that by the way. I have done that as a creative, creative productions or video clips and, and I've just dumped them and then gone, no strategy by next, you know?
Rebecca (23:44.964)
Yeah.
Rebecca (23:48.898)
Yeah, it's so easily done, but as soon as you change that mindset, you know, it can turn into, oh, well, that's created me social content and other content and email content off the one thing. And as soon as I got that as a creative, I'm like, oh, my to-do list has kind of gone down now because I've got less to create and less to make, which is part of the process. But I love that. I love that retention strategy and that focus on retention. And it's something that I love to do. And I also like to receive the gifts. I like to receive.
as much as I like to give them. It's always a little bit of joy. So Joe, you're on the podcast because you are a member of the Champagne Lounge. What, I'm gonna take this for attention a little bit further in the setting. You know, what sparked the joy of becoming a member here and why do you want to continue being part of the community?
Josephine Lancuba (24:36.054)
Well, I actually came to see you live in Sydney at your Champagne Lounge tour. You did a road show? Yeah, so I thought I'll go down. Yeah, why not? Go and check it out. I went and checked it out, thought it was super fun. I actually didn't join immediately after that. It took me, I joined a month later. I started seeing people talking about the Champagne Lounge. I was like, oh, I've got to get into this. But truly the reason I joined was because...
Rebecca (24:43.102)
I did, I did a roadshow, yes.
Rebecca (24:50.193)
Yeah.
Rebecca (24:54.293)
Mm.
Josephine Lancuba (25:04.626)
I think business is lonely. It really is. Even someone who has, yes, I have an online business, but I also have a service-based business where you actually go into a studio, but let's be real. My staff love them dearly. We get on well, but we're not friends. Like I can't actually tell them the nitty gritties of the business or what I'm going through, because I wouldn't want to share that with them because
My job is to be their leader and mentor. And there's only, there's certain things that just aren't shareable. And sometimes, yeah, I do find myself not really having anyone to speak to about what I do, even my partner, supportive, lovely guy, not, not an entrepreneur, and it's just not his space. He doesn't want to talk about my business all the time, um, or even just the challenges of it. So I think the biggest thing for me was just having
Rebecca (25:53.708)
They don't quite get it. Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (26:02.982)
a community where I didn't have a to-do list and I could just jump in and have a conversation. And they're not always business conversations. They usually are. And we actually love that. We don't get sick of it. We're not bored. That's the other bit. So I do enjoy that part. And I don't feel like I'm missing out if I can't make it or if I jump in.
Rebecca (26:17.432)
I'm sorry.
Rebecca (26:22.364)
Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (26:29.798)
know, 10 minutes after a session started, it's no biggie. Like, I just like the fact that it's not another thing to do, because I've got enough to do, you know. So that was really weird.
Rebecca (26:39.482)
Right? Exactly. Hearing you say that's music, music to my ears, because it is the whole premise of it was to be easy and accessible and just give you connection and communication and a chat when you fancied it, which I'm glad from hearing you say that is, it's doing its job, which I love. And I know that you've met a number of connections and friends and that you've also helped each other out and jumped in and it's been beautiful to watch the magic happen.
Josephine Lancuba (27:02.51)
Totally. I actually met someone in your group and we got on really well because we were talking about talent management and she was doing something and I was doing something, whatever. And then we happened to be in another networking group together and I posted a problem that I had on Kajabi, which is totally unrelated to the conversation we had, but she was the first to jump in and go, oh, hey, Joe, like she knew me from the champagne lounge. Hey, Joe, hey, this is how you solve that problem. And she gave it to me and it fixed my technical issue.
Rebecca (27:26.161)
Yeah.
Josephine Lancuba (27:32.566)
which again was nothing to do with any conversation we'd had in the lounge. It was just, I posted something, she recognized me and she was in to help. And I think that truly did come from us being connected. So, you know, it's just those little bits that you end up going, oh, I know you from there and oh, we've met in the champagne lounge, that's nice. And so it's just those little connections that I think make a big difference. So you're not doing business alone, you know.
Rebecca (27:57.694)
Definitely, 100%. And you know, I'm glad we've ended this episode on that because you don't have to be lonely. There are people out there to support you in whatever way you need support. And so if you're listening to this as a creative and you want some help from Jo in just navigating that mindset piece, making your business a little bit more profitable and a little bit easier, I'll be linking all of her notes and her programs into the show notes below. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Jo. You and I could chat for hours.
but I'm conscious, I stop episodes at 30 minutes for the sake of our listeners, so. I am a bachelor, yes, I am a bachelor at the moment, but I appreciate your time. I can't wait to see this episode go live, and I look forward to seeing you in the lounge sometime soon.
Josephine Lancuba (28:30.17)
I know, you're good at batching, you're batching at the moment, right?
Josephine Lancuba (28:41.762)
Alright, thank you.
